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Gary Ashcraft of Ashcraft Ministries

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posted by Gary Ashcraft alias RevGAshcraft on Wednesday 14th of January 2009 04:19:07 PM

Enter Pentecostal Chat Room ashcraftministry.blogspot.com/ The Bible verses used to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture, instead_prove the_ "Post-Trib" Rapture, _at this conference held at Country Church in Redding, California, and was attended by 800 men. Common sense should tell us that there can't be two Second Comings. Hebrews 9:28 (paraphrased) "...He comes once as a suffering Messiah, then a second time... unto salvation." No third time mentioned in God's word, nor is there any mention of dividing the second coming into two events. So, lets reason together, He has already been here once, which would leave one more event, The Second Coming of Christ, that the Bible clearly states occurs after the great tribulation. . Futhermore, there isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that states Christians are removed before the Tribulation. If anyone can find one, would you please Email me? Then, I promise you, I would remove this webpage from every search engine. Please, no assumptions, analogys or verses taken out of context. . The three senior pastors that spoke at this "Endtime Conference" used nine scriptures to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture. However, out of the nine they used, seven were taken out of context, and the other two were based on assumptions._ Below are the nine scriptures they used to "try" to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture: . . (All verses quoted are KJV, but for an instant reference in the English Standard (ESV), place the cursor on chapter and verse). . . #1. I Corinthians 15:51-52 51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." . . Read the last two lines in the above verse slowly, think about the "order" (sequence) God inspired Paul to list these three events: #1 The Last Trump,#2 The Resurrection,#3 The Rapture, (we shall be changed). Paul would have listed the Rapture first, instead of third, if this was to be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Also Jesus says four times in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54, the resurrection is on the Last day. So, if the Resurrection is on the Last Day, as stated by Jesus, and in I Cor 15:52, Paul lists the Rapture after the Resurrection. Paul has told us the "sequence" of these (3) events and Jesus told us "when", (on the Last Day). Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend??_Clearly, these two verses teach a.....Post-Tribulation Rapture..... at the Second Coming of Christ. How can the Last Trumpet sound, the Resurrection, and then the rapture happen, seven years before the "Last Day" ? ? . . #2. I Thes.4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." . . Again the word "trump" is used, but the Thessalonians were unclear as to "when" this would happen. Paul apparently heard that they were troubled about this, so he then wrote a _second letter _to clear this up, and this reads as follows: . II Thes 2:1,2,3,4 (v-1) "Now we beseech you, brothern, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together (Rapture) unto him,___ (v-2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind,_or be troubled,_neither by spirit,_or by word, nor by letter from us, _as that the _day of Christ_ is at hand. (v-3) Let no man_deceive you_by any means: for_that day shall not come_except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"(false Christ). . In this, second letter, Paul, this time_ makes it _very clear that the false Christ_ comes first,__and (v-3) not to let anyone deceive you. Then, refering back to the first letter he wrote, then (after false Christ) the Lord descends, with a shout, with the voice of the arch angel, with the"trump" of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. This is the second coming of Christ, after the tribulation_ So, with this_second letter_ Paul is making it clear that this "trump"_ is not before the tribulation _its after!! Its a post-tribulation rapture, on the Last Day!! . #3. Revelation 3:10 "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth." . Notice that Jesus says, "....I will keep thee from...." , He does not say, "...take thee out of..." . So, for a better understanding of Rev. 3:10, Lets prove the Bible, with the Bible, and not assume anything._ Lets let Jesus clearify this verse, which He does in John 17:15, "I pray not that thou take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil." Jesus clearly says__"not" to take them out__in John 17:15. So, how can the_I will Keep thee from_of Rev. 3:10_ mean_ I will take thee out of_? As pre-trib teachers would have you believe. Jesus does "not" contradict Himself !!__For the Greek meaning of "Keep thee from". See side column Note #2-> All of the early church fathers taught that the "Antichrist" comes first (see link at the end of this post on "Early Church Fathers." . Gods wrath does not fall on us,"only those who had the mark of the beast" (Rev 16:2). And those who "do not have the seal of God" (Rev 9:4). Like the "144 thousand" of Rev. 7:3, we have the seal of God._ See Eph.1:13 "....after you believed, you were sealed......" And Eph.4:30 "......you are sealed unto the day of redemption." There are several verses that clearly state, after we accept Christ, we are sealed, (protected from Gods wrath). . #4. Matthew 24:27 "For as the lighting cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the son of man be." Go down two verses, Matt.24:29 tells you "when" this will be: "Immediately__ after the tribulation__ of those days...." Now Matt.24:30 "....then shall appear the sign of the son of man (Jesus)..." Now Matt.24:31, "..with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together (rapture) his elect...." Again the same trumpet as in other verses, now back to Matt.24:26, Jesus tells them not to believe people that tell you that He (Jesus) is in a secret place (like a secret pre-trib rapture). Matt.24:27 is another verse that was clearly taken out of context, Its a post tribulation rapture, at the second coming of Christ. . #5. Matthew 25:1-13 The parable of the "ten virgins"___ Here Jesus does not talk about the "time" of His return, because He had just told them a few minutes before about the time, (see the paragraph before this one_Matt.24:29_definitely after the tribulation). The Wedding Feast can only take place after the tribulation, because the Resurrection dosn't happen until the Last day. Jesus said four times that the Resurrection is on the Last Day (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54). _ Then the bridegroom (church) goes into the wedding feast after the second coming of Christ, and guess who else is at this Wedding Feast?___1 The Old Testament saints__2 The tribulation saints__3 The prophets. 4 The 144,000 new Christian Jews. There would have to be two wedding feasts_two resurrections, and_two last days_ for the "pre-trib" rapture to work. And_one verse_would also be nice!! . #6. Mark 13:6-37 In this entire chapter Jesus is talking about the events that happen durning the tribulation, and that they were _not_ to look for Him until_after_ certain events happen first, then in Mark 13:24, 25, 26, 27, (paraphased) "...after the tribulation of those days, then they shall see Him..." So Jesus again told them He's coming back after the tribulation, making this a post- tribulation rapture at the Second Coming of Christ. . #7. Luke 21:6-38 Basically this chapter is the same as the above chapter, where Jesus returns__after__the tribulation, at the second coming of Christ, except in v-36, He says, "....pray that you be accounted worthy to escape all these things.."And we will, because we have the seal of God, (Eph. 1:13, Eph. 4:30, II Cor 1:22, John 6:27). We are protected (sealed) from Gods wrath, like the 144 thousand of Revelation 7:4. . #8. II Peter 3:10 "...The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night." Now lets let the Bible prove the Bible and go to I Thes. 5:2, where the exact same words are used, "...the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." Then in I Thes.5:4, (paraphased) "But [we] are not in darkness that this day should overtake [us] as a thief." Why? Because I Thes.5:5 "... [we] are children of the light." And Jesus says "Behold I come as a thief" right after the 6th Vial is poured out at the end of the tribulation (Rev.16:12,15). And this begins the Last Day. (I inserted "we" for "you" because Peter and Pauls letters were to the Gentiles (non Jews_"us"). #9. Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." So, when does He give out rewards? See Rev. 11:15, 18, "And the 7th angel sounded...[its time]...that thou give rewards...unto the saints..."_Its after the 7th trump!!__At the end!! Rewards are given out after the post-resurrection rapture, after the Second Coming of Christ. [A] Now, all of the (9) verse references listed above, was all that was presented to prove the "Pre-Trib" rapture by the three pastors at this conference. You can see that they were all taken out of context, or based on assumptions. God was very angry with the ten spies, who made Israel fear the Giants that were in the land that God promised them (Num.13:1-2), and_they were afraid to go in (Num.13:31,32,33). We are doing the same thing today, by fearing the "Giant" (anti-Christ) _we add "pre-trib" to Gods word, without a single verse to prove it, this is very dangerous, (see Rev. 22:18). It is not my intent to belittle these three pastors, I am sure they are sincere Christians, but if they can't come up with one single verse that specificy places this event before the tribulation, who can?_can you? [B] Its really very simple, if its not in Gods word, its not going to happen. Again, I want to repeat that these nine scriptures were all that was used to prove the "pre-trib" rapture that day, I was there! The senior pastor of this church has read this article, (the nine verses) and made a comment to me via Email, and he did not question that these verses were all that was used to support this. [C] Note: The "pre-trib" view is a new doctrine, you will not find pre-trib writings or documents in any church history until about the year 1830. Edward Irving, (Catholic Apostolic Church) and soon after, John Darby, (Plymouth Brethren) both of England, were teaching the pre-tribulation rapture. _However, the most important reason for the acceptance of this "pre-trib" rapture view in the United States was the Scofield Reference Bible. In the footnotes he split the second coming of Christ into two events: Coming for the saints, then (7yrs later) Coming with the saints (at which time we enter into God's millennium kingdom on earth). My question is where do we go for the seven years? The Bible clearly states (KJV)"The righteous (saints) shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth." (Prov.10:30) see also Ps.37:29 and Prov.2:21-22. [D] Some may ask:_"what difference does it make if Christ returns before the tribulation, or after"?_ There are sincere Christians on both sides. However, the Bible says in I Thes.5:21, to "prove all things."_And in II Tim.4:4,"And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables." (fiction) Like the "Left Behind" book and movie, cars & planes crashing, etc. Millions killed before the tribulation even starts, when all these people still have/had a chance to be saved during this time. The truth was Left Behind, in the making of this movie, yet it sells well in the religious marketplaces. The "Pre-Trib" doctrine has become amusement for the masses, a multi billion dollar business [E] If such a major event as the "pre-trib" Rapture is true, why isn't it found in Old Testament prophecy?__or in Jesus's own teachings?__ or His disciples?__or any of the New Testament writers?__Jesus said in Mark 13:23,__ "I have foretold you all things."__He would have told us!! [F] Others may say: "That the tribulation is only for the Jews," (the 144 thousand) and that they are the people that God uses in this time to bring people to Christ. This may be true, in part, but look at Rev. 7:1,2,3,4 where God puts a seal on this small group. And because of this seal, they are protected!! The woman (Israel) is protected in the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation (Rev. 12:13-14). This, in turn, makes the sepent (Satan) angry, so he goes after us in Rev.12:17, those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ." _Again, go back to Rev. 7:9, "After this (the sealing of the 144000) I beheld, and look, a great multitude... of all nations...". Now skip to Rev.7:13, who are these people, and where did they come from?_Then Rev.7:14, "these are they that came out of great tribulation...". And God just stated in Rev 12:13-14, that the woman(Israel, the 144,000 Jews) are protected. So, who do you think this great multitude is that has the "testimony of Jesus Christ", if its not us?? [G] So, there are untold millions, along with the Jews that are in this period of time. To say this time is only for the Jews is another assumption and not valid. They base this on Isaiah 45:4, where Israel is called Gods "elect" (in the KJV) so then in Matt. 24:31, when Jesus sends his angels to gather His "elect" after the tribulation, that this event (the second coming of Christ) is only for the Jews who have to go through the tribulation.__ After we (non Jews) accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our saviour, we then become Gods "elect."__ I will back up this statement with Pauls letters to non Jews, the Galatians and the Colossians : [H] 1. Gal.3:28-29 (paraphrased)"There is neither Jew or Greek,you are all one in Christ...you also are Abrahams seed..."(elect) .2. Col 3:11-12, "....there is neither Greek or Jew....but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the __Elect of God...." .3. I Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes a letter to different nationalitys and calls them the _"elect of God"_ because they have been "washed in the blood of the Lamb"__ like we have been. So, Israel_"and"_the church_"are"_Gods elect!! Jesus has one bride! He created the miracle of uniting Jew and Gentile alike into one bride. Let's just "reason together", does it make any sense that Jesus would rapture out a partial bride? What parts would He take first? And then...what? Pick up the other parts later - with whatever the results the 144K Jews are able to accomplish during the 7 years? Why would Jesus remove only some? And... if He was going to do this, don't you think He would have told us? At least one verse stating that He was going to take some out first? Jesus said in Mark 13:23, "I have foretold you all things." He would have told us!! And do you suppose Jesus would have the wedding feast with His "raptured" church (bride), without the tribulation saints, the Old Testament saints, the prophets or the 144K?? Let's think about this, are we really this special?_ Compared to them?_I think not! I am going to add a few scriptures, (that were not mentioned at this conference) that are also used to support the pre-tribulation rapture, so that you will have a complete list of all the verses, assumptions and analogys this "new" doctrine was based on: [I] 1. I Thes.5:2 "...the Day of the Lord so cometh as a "thief in the night." But is not valid to be used for "pre-trib" because this happens after the "6th vial" is poured out at the end of the tribulation, after Rev. 16:12, then Jesus says in Rev.16:15, "Behold, I come as a thief."_Its after the tribulation, at the Second Coming of Christ. [J] 2. Matt. 24:40, is another one,_"...One shall be taken, and the other left."_Jesus made this statement just minutes after He had just told them "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." (Matt.24:29). Thats when "one will be taken and and the other left." Not seven years before! [K] 3. The 'Noah' analogy__Many analogys are used by the Pre- Trib Rapture teachers, for lack of scripture proof (like, not one). However, Noah is their main one, so I will deal only with this one. Everyone is aware of the fact that Noah warned the people that a flood is coming and to repent, but _they refused to listen. The Pre-Trib Rapture teachers say "thats like the Rapture", so as Noah was saved out of the flood, we are going to be "Raptured" out of the Tribulation. Its an analogy!!_ It Proves nothing! The Post-Trib 'Noah' analogy_We, the Post-Tribulation Rapture teachers, are warning you that a flood is coming (the Tribulation) , but you refuse to listen, just like in the days of Noah.But Instead of a flood of water, it's a flood of Satanic deception that started with a small wave in 1830 with the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Now this wave of deception has covered the entire western world and has blinded us to the huge wave that may soon be upon us. Because millions refuse to hear the truth, many will fall in this dark time, and be deceived into taking the "Mark of the Beast" and be forever lost. However, post-trib rapture teachers don't have to use analogys to prove their view. But even with two dozen solid scriptures, the people still _refuse to listen!! [L] 4. Mark 13:32, is also used_ "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man..." _Jesus told them this a few minutes after telling them in Mark 13:24 "...in those days after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkned, and the moon shall not give her light..." And goes on to say in Mark 13:28-29 that we will know this day is close because next He says in Mark 13:30, that the generation that sees these things (the tribulation events He just spoke of), would, (back to Mark 13:26-27) "...see the Son of man coming in the clouds...to gather His elect from the...uttermost parts of the earth..." We still will not know the exact day, only that it is close. This is the second coming of Christ after the tribulation. [M] Some people ask me, "why is it that the vast majority of Christians believe in the "pre-trib"?_When Jesus came to the earth the first time, the vast majority of the religious people (the church) of that time, rejected him, even after many Old Testament prophecys fortold of this event. But they did not want a suffering Messiah, they wanted a conquering king. In this case the vast majority was wrong!! Now, today, we want the Messiah to take us out before a certain event, not after!! But, guess what, we don't get to choose. He only comes to the earth two times (Heb 9:28). Once as a suffering Messiah, and then as a conquering KING at the Second Coming of Christ. [N] We soon may be entering the last seven years of this age, the 70th week of Daniel. We will not be 'up in the bleachers' (as our endtime preachers would have us believe) and we need not fear, God is with us. Jesus said "...I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18) [O] No mater what view we hold, we still need to accept each other as Christians. Those of us that hold to the post-tribulation rapture view, should not be thought of as troublemakers, we are only concerned that millions may fall during this time, a time when we (the church) can be used by God. "..The people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many..." (Daniel 11:32-33) And, then we can be overcomers as in Rev. 7:9,13,14 "...a great mulitude, which no man could number, of all nations.." v-13 ( paraphrased) "...who are these people and where did they come from?" _ Then v-14, "...these are they which came out of great tribulation, and washed their robes, and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb." . Print this article_think about it!_The nine scriptures used by these three pastors was all they had to prove the "pre-trib" rapture in a_ six hour_ conference.?? Something is wrong!! Post Script...Important to read brief quotes from the early church fathers on what they believed and taught on the Second Coming of Christ, and the Antichrist. Most of these apostles and teachers lifespan overlaped each other from the year 30 to 1900. "Early Church Fathers" earlychurchbelief.blogspot.com/ Very brief answers on the Eternal Security Doctrine (OSAS). "Eternal Security ?" osas-question.blogspot.com/ The first four of God's 7-angels that execute the seal, trump, and vial plagues are the, "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse," 4horsemen4.blogspot.com/ The antichrist empire that will center in the middle east is the, "Endtime Beast Empire," endtimebeast.blogspot.com/ Mystery Babylon (Rome) the mother of harlots, "The Woman On The Scarlet Beast" ancient-harlot.blogspot.com/ Questions?... Roger Armstrong... [email protected] . Read, "GLORY TRAIN"-A Play, by Dr. Gavin Finley. A drama on a endtime theme, endtimepilgrim.org/glorytrain.htm Dr. Finley has several links on the Post-Tribulation Rapture topic, AKA-"The Second Coming of Christ."



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